Lister/Listeroid multifuel stationary engines

Moving blog

2007-10-20T23:18:00.000-07:00

I decided to move this Blog to my website http://rbodell.com/listeroids.aspx

Please go there to continue from here. All the old info will be there too.

New air cleaner and gas starter motor

2007-10-17T16:14:00.000-07:00

I added a bigger air cleaner today, one that uses the same filter as my truck. it is pretty self explanitiry. The bolt in the middle just closes up a hole. it doesn't do anything.

On the bottom is a 1.5 inch floor flange with a short nipple which will fit inside a piece of 1 7/8 exhaust pipe. The end fo the exhaust pipe which is compressed to fit inside of another piece, will just fir over the intake on the engine where the origional air filter goes (clcick on the bottom view for a cloeup photo). 2 pieces of sheet metal and four bolts take the place of the top and bottom of the air filter. This perticular one is 12 inch OD.

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I got tired of the hand crank. It is great when all else fails, but every day is not fun.

I mounted a 4.5 HP lawn mower engine on the engine bed with an 88 inch A belt. The engine has a 3 inch pulley.

The belt is very loose. I start the engine and use an idler pulley on a stick to temporarily tighten the belt to get the engine turning. Then I remove the idler pulley and the belt flys off the flywheel. I then release the exhaust valve and the engine starts.

Puppydog the cat.

2007-10-03T15:58:00.000-07:00

Puppydog is actualy the dogs nickname. The cat decided she would answer to it so now the cat is named puppydog. I got her just when she was weaned and she grew up with the dog so she thinks she is a dog. She growels juust like a dog too. Not only does she answer to her name, she comes when called. Unlike the dog, I don't have to leave the gate shut, she stays in the yard by herself except when I take the dog for a walk. then she wil walk through the fence and wait just outside the gate until we get back and take the second part of the walk in the far end of the property. Then she falls in and comes along with the dog.

Like the picture of her sleeping by the diesel engine while it is running, she picks the weirdest places to sleep, the noiseyest and most uncomfortable places too. She also prefers to eat the dogs dry dog food rather than her meaty cat food or canned tuna, both of which the dog will gladly eat after she turnes her nose up to them. She also makes no bones about her getting firsts at the dogs food. After she gets done eating she lets the dog eat.

270 Hours

2007-10-03T15:07:00.000-07:00

Since the engine is new I decided not to go the recommended 1000 hours between oil changes and changed it to doday. I also added a street L and a 12 inch nipple to the oil drain so I can drain the oil easier in the future. I just put a pipe cap on the end for now, Later I might add a valve with a pipe plug for a safety so it doesn't get bumped or accidently turned on and drain the oil while it is running.

I also pulled the inspection plate above the oil drain and looked inside. I found the oil drain is not at the lowest point of the sump so I took the bottom of an oil can and diped out the excess. Since these things run in india for twenty years without an air cleaner or oil change, it might not be necessary, but I like the idea of getting all I can get out. Man that oil is nasty. I suggest rubber gloves. lets not forget waste motor oil is "toxic waste"

A little note of intrest here. each gallon of waste oil I burn replaces a gallon of diesel fuel at $3 a gallon. The engine holds about 1.5 gallons, so I immediately get a $4.50 refund on the new oil by burning the old oil.

When I got done "Dilbert" was a mess so I decided to give him a bath. You don't just wipe off dirty diesel oil, it has to be scrubbed off and Dilbert didn't go to any trouble to stay clean. I hope nobody complains about this nude shot of Dilbert. As you can se he is quite a stud.

Quiet running

2007-09-18T14:49:00.000-07:00

This engine runs so quiet the cat sleeps next to it while it is running.

Finaly have it on the ground and running.

2007-09-17T12:00:00.002-07:00

Well, Finally got it set up and running. Temporarily, I have the roof just setting on the ground. The generator is between two shipping containers so there is only downward falling rain to shield it from. I will eventually be putting a roof between the two containers and remove the temporary one.

Since it has been cool lately and I haven't needed the air conditioning. I set the rpm down to 300 rpm. It still charges batteries at 30 to 40 amps. The alternator is running hot though. I am going to run it that way though for a while and see what happens. I am also going to see if I can get or make a smaller diameter pulley for it on the lathe to increase air flow through it.

If I can get it to run at 300 rpm, I can extend my fuel to about 6 to 7 hours per gallon. Since I am running 50% waste motor oil, that means about 12 to 14 hours per gallon of diesel fuel. At present prices, that comes to about$1.50 a day or 45 dollars a month.

Permanent location.

2007-09-15T21:29:00.000-07:00

Since I mounted the generator on a trailer in case I had to move it around to a quieter place was unnecessary, I decided today to set it on the ground where it was at except I turned it 90 degrees to make it easier to get around it.

The only real hassle was that I had to remove the bolts holding down the engine and replace them from the bottom up so the excess was not in the way when I set it down on the railroad ties I have buried for a base.

No photos this time, I worked up till about 8 PM. I thought retirement was supposed to be easy. I used to work 40 hours and wear a white shirt. I haven't had a day off since I retired and wear blue work clothes now. Come to think of it, I haven't even got any dress clothes. I might as well go back to work.

So far I have it setting on some cement blocks. Tomorrow I will remount the generator, move the water tank, move the fuel tank and bolt it all down.

Updated the DC charging system

2007-09-11T19:50:00.000-07:00

I decided to get rid of the unregulated 100amp alternator and exchange it for a manually regulated 60 amp alternator. The problem is that when I try to start it in the morning, it would charge about 60 or 70 amps which would consume all it's power and leave little for the ac generator. Then by the end of the day as the batteries build up, the engine is running under a strain and getting hot.

By reducing the alternator output to about 30 amps, it can run all day and still have extra power for the ac generator for my hot water and air conditioner. Everything else runs on the batteries and inverter.

Because of the large bank of batteries i have, I can charge them at 30 to 50 amps rite up until They are fully charged without over heating. heck, 50 amps all day won't even get them warm.

To control the alternator I used a big OHMITE variable resistor. I put it in series with the FIELD. Now when I am not tunning anything else I can charge ay 50 or 60amps and when I want hot water or air conditioning, I can drop it back to 20, 30 or 40 amps.

Water temperature Guage

2007-09-08T16:09:00.000-07:00

Today I installed a water temperature guage on the outlet side fo the engine block. I used a EQUUS 6242 water temperature guage ($19.99 at the auto parts store). It comes with adaptors to pipe thread so I could install it in a 3/4 inch T.
"

100 Hours

2007-09-08T02:00:00.000-07:00

I now have 100 hours on it running 50% waste motor oil. Although it is a new engine and expected to burn oil, it has only consumed 1 quart of oil maintining a full oil level. I have talked to several people and they all have said it takes about 1000 hours till it gets broken in and stops using oil. Most generators would be on the downgrade of their life cycle at 1000 hours LOL.

Since the wind has been blowing the exhaust back at the engine a lot, the air cleaner looked bretty black so I changed that. I had a little trouble finding the crossreference for the NAPA filter at my auto parts store, but I found another filter that fit perfectly that they had in stock.

I also changed the fuel filter. I had similar problems finding a fuel filter element. I Found another one and drilled out a hole in the top and removed the rubber gaskets from the old filter and put them on the new filter. Since I put a new filter between the old filter and the 15 gallon fuel tank, the old filter is a secondary filter now. I ran it with just the old filter for a couple of days just to make sure it was working properly with the alterations.

Larger fuel tank

2007-09-04T20:16:00.000-07:00

I now have a 15 gallon fuel tank up with a larger 10 micron Gpldenrod fuel filter.

I simply cut the fuel line between the regular engine mounted fuel tank and the engine mounted fuel filter and installed a T. The new fuel filter is between the new fuel tank and the T. This way any fuel goes through two fuel filters now.

I didn't bother with running the fuel return line to the new fuel tank, it still goes into the engine mounted tank. I ran it 4 hours today and there was not a visible change in the fuel level and I usualy go check it every couople of hours anyhow. When it does get full, I will just run it off the fuel tank for a while.

UPDATE: After two days of running the fuel level in the fuel tank still has not risin apreciably. At this rate I could probably go a week and not acumulate over 1/2 of a tank from the return line.

More work on it

2007-08-23T16:32:00.000-07:00

I have been doing some little things like setting up an hour meter and wiring in the electrical box to the house and putting a roof over it to keep it out of the weather. My next project is to start cleaning up waste oil to burrn in it.

Generating electricity now

2007-08-18T16:53:00.001-07:00

I now have the automotive alternator generating power to the house batteries and a cover mounted on the trailer. I guess in the next week or so I will have the ac generator hooked up and running too.

Ran the engine today

2007-08-16T15:24:00.000-07:00

Well, today it ran and charged batteries. had to drill a hole in the thermostat so it would bled out the air when I filled the water tanks. Other than that, it fires off on the first time. I still have to finish up hooking up the 220 ac generator yet.

2007-08-13T17:24:00.000-07:00

Well, it finally arrived. The trucking company said it would arrive after lunch. I had it delivered to a local machine shop where they had a fork lift. I could get it off my trailer but not off the truck. I showed up about 15 to 12 and the truck arrived at 12:05. That was good timing.

When I got it home I parked it under a tree where it was cool and removed the crate.

I filled it up with oil and fuel and bled the fuel lines and it fired off the first time. I didn't have water hooked up so I just let it run for a minute to be sure the air was out of the fuel lines.

My engine is finally on the way.

2007-08-10T20:44:00.000-07:00

My engine has finally been shipped. After a three month wait and then another month of next week and tomorrow's, it is finally in the hands of the trucking company. It looks like it will be here sometime next week.

Engine Bed and Expansion Chamber

2007-07-31T19:39:00.001-07:00

My intentions are to mount my generator close to the house since most of the work will be running a DC alternator for the batteries and DC doesn't like long runs. My house if pretty well insulated and quite sound proof, however even with a good muffler I might have to move it farther away. Since we are talking a thousand pounds more or less, picking it up and moving it around is a major job for one person with a bad back. Because of this, I decided to mount it on a trailer so I could move it around and then when I find the rite place, just Pour a slab, cut the hitch off, remove the axle and springs, and set it down and I have the engine bed. Down is a lot easier than down and up and down and up. Click the photo for a larger image.

As I said, Noise is a problem, so I built an expansion chamber for the exhaust. I took a 55 gallon drum and put a 30 gallon inside it. Then I surrounded the 30 gallon drum with dirt and buried the 55 gallon drum about 2/3 of the way. Too bad I didn't think about moving the engine before I buried it LOL. It was a little tricky running the exhaust lines through the lid of the 55 gallon lid and making them water tight so the inner space doesn't fill with water and rust the 30 gallon drum. Another problem I had was filling the 55 gallon drum with dirt and getting the lid on it. I ended up jumping up and down on it off and on all afternoon. I finally got it closed. Click the image for a larger picture.

Lister engine history

2007-07-29T22:52:00.000-07:00

A little bit of history on the Lister cold starting Diesels from http://www.oldengine.org/members/culp/lister_diesel_miscellany.html .More Lister information can be found at that site. Please visit the site.

There's not a great deal of information available on these, despite how common they are throughout the British Commonwealth. Perhaps "familiarity breeds contempt"? This is basically what I've been able to put together through snippets from enthusiasts' sites on the Web, discussions on the Stationary Engine Lists (both on the atis.net and oldengine.org servers), data from my good friend Peter Forbes, David Edgington's books on the Lister petrol engines and stationary engines in general, and from a couple of old books on Diesel engines that mention Lister briefly. Oh, and from the Lister 3/1, 5/1, and 10/2 owner's manual. :-)

Like the well-known Oldsmobile 350 V8 and Volkswagen Rabbit Diesels of the 1970s, the Lister CS series of Diesels were converted from an existing petrol (gasoline) engine. The Lister L, built since 1909, was a side-valve, low-compression, spark-ignition engine. It was made in many variations with different combustion chamber designs, speed ratings, etc., and produced anywhere from 4 to 6 1/2 BHP. It had a bore and stroke of 5 1/2" x 5 1/2". During the late 1920s many manufacturers were developing small, solid-injection Diesel engines, either from new designs or by converting existing ones. Lister chose to base a new Diesel engine on the proven "L" design. Though this might be regarded as a "kludge" by some, the CS engines that resulted were highly successful. Introduced in 1930, they continued in production by Lister until 1987! And several companies in India are still producing unauthorized copies to this day!

Sir Harry Ricardo had served as a consultant to Listers for some time, designing combustion chambers for the petrol engines that greatly improved their power output and efficiency. Ricardo was well known for Diesel combustion chamber design as well, particularly for his "Comet" combustion chamber. This can be seen well in a cross-section of the Waukesha Comet truck Diesel. The piston came very close to the underside of the head, forcing nearly all of the air into a small passage that opened tangentially into a small spherical turbulence chamber. This produced a violent swirling turbulence. The injector nozzle was centrally located in the top of the chamber, with a single orifice aimed straight down to the floor. Swirling air broke up this relatively coarse spray and mixed it with air, the heavy droplets that hit the floor mostly bouncing back as a fine mist into the raging cyclone, the heat of the chamber walls rapidly vaporizing fuel that wet the surface. As the fuel ignited and burned, the hot gases were forced back through the passage into the cylinder, entering at about a 35 degree angle to the cylinder axis and from one side, resulting in a highly turbulent mixing action with the air still present in the cylinder. This sort of combustion chamber is known generically as a "turbulence chamber," and differs from a "precombustion chamber," "prechamber," or "antechamber" in that most of the air drawn into the cylinder is forced into this small chamber, and most of the combustion occurs within this space. In a prechamber design, only a little of the air is forced into the prechamber, where partial combustion prepares the fuel as a hot gaseous mix that's forced into the main chamber to mix with the rest of the air for complete burning. The terms are often used interchangeably, however.

It is not known to what extent Ricardo may have participated in the planning and design of the Lister cold starting Diesels. The engine's design is generally attributed to Arthur Freeman-Sanders, a Lister designer of the period who became their chief designer, and to whom the Lister "D" design is also credited. I have mentioned the Ricardo Comet combustion chamber design in some detail because I believe it may have been the basis for the somewhat modified, yet strikingly similar, chamber of the CS engines.

In converting the petrol "L" to a Diesel, Freeman-Sanders faced major engineering challenges. A new head had to be designed with overhead valves, as a sidevalve layout is highly inefficient at the high compression ratios necessary for autoignition of Diesel fuel. An injection pump and nozzle system had to be selected (a Bosch unit was chosen) and adapted to the engine. The governing mechanism would have to be modified to control the pump rather than a carburetor's throttle. Perhaps most problematic, the bottom end of the engine would be subjected to far higher stresses at Diesel compression ratios than at the existing petrol engine compression ratios of 5:1 or less. And combustion in Diesels is notoriously "rough," as anyone who's sat next to an idling truck at a traffic light can attest!

To make the bottom end stresses manageable, Freeman-Sanders did two things: 1) He reduced the bore diameter from the 5 1/2" of the "L" to 4 1/2" in the 5/1 (5 HP, 1 cylinder) CS Diesel, and to 3 3/4" in the 3/1 version. This greatly reduced the piston area over which the higher pressures would act. 2) Recognizing that the peak forces were still risky for the crankshaft and bottom end bearings when the compression was high enough for cold starting (that is, without using a torch to heat a hot bulb, plate or glow plug, and without a burning punk inserted into the cylinder), he came up with an ingenious idea: Start the engine at a compression ratio high enough to ensure good starting, then switch the running engine to a lower compression ratio to reduce the strain! The method he invented to accomplish this was unique and elegantly simple. The spherical turbulence chamber was tilted up from its slanted position at the edge of the cylinder (in the Comet design) to an upright, nearly central location to make room in the head for a second, smaller spherical auxiliary combustion chamber or air cell. Passing through this auxiliary chamber is a threaded plunger with a handwheel attached, just like the valve in an ordinary faucet. When it is screwed all the way in, this plunger seals off the narrow passage between the main combustion chamber and the auxiliary one, giving high compression for efficient starting and running on light loads. When screwed all the way out, the plunger seals against the outer wall of the auxiliary chamber, the passageway is open between the two chambers and the compression ratio is lower for minimizing the strain on the engine while running under heavy load. (In between the two positions, the compression changeover valve leaks air to the outside and the engine has no compression.) This arrangement can easily be seen on the cutaway on the right side of this picture of an early Lister Diesel.

(This engine is not a CS. It is a JP or 9/1, which was introduced slightly ahead of the CS and is actually Lister's first Diesel engine. It has the same handwheel compression changeover used on the CS.) Here's another picture, of the head of a CS

showing the compression changeover apparatus. Mechanical compression ratios for the 5/1, 6/1, 10/2 and 12/2 engines using this system were 19:1 starting, 15:1 running. For the smaller 3/1 and 3 1/2/1 engines, the ratios were 22:1 starting, 18:1 running. (Smaller engines have more surface area for the combustion chamber volume, cooling the compressed air more rapidly, thus requiring a higher ratio to ensure that the air will get hot enough during cranking to reliably ignite the fuel. Some older books stated that a Diesel could never be built with less than a 6" bore!) ;-)

Despite the two precautions of de-boring the engine and reducing the running compression ratio, the old "L" bottom end developed problems when used in a Diesel. In the early '30s the crankshaft diameter was increased from the original 1 3/4" to 2". (The same change was made to the petrol "L-31," which was run at higher speeds and was rated at 7, 8, 9 or 10 HP depending on speed, usually 9 HP.)

An innovation introduced in the mid-30s was the "Listard" coating on the cylinder bore, which greatly reduced wear. Reportedly the secret to its success was that after this hard chrome plating was applied, the polarity of the current was briefly reversed. This produced microscopic cracking and pitting in the chromium, which held oil and provided far better lubrication than would be the case with a plain mirror-polished chrome surface!

Sometime during the 1950s the 3/1, 5/1, and 10/2 engines were slightly uprated in speed (from 600 to 650 RPM) and rerated to 3 1/2, 6 and 12 HP. The 3 1/2/1 was discontinued in 1952. The official renaming of the uprated 6/1 and 12/2 was in 1962, when the 800 RPM 8/1 and 16/2 were introduced. The 6/1 continued to be manufactured until 1974, the 12/2 to 1975. The 8/1 was made until 1987.

In addition to the higher speed rating, the 8/1 and 16/2 dispensed with the compression changeover system. Apparently Lister's engineers figured that with a slightly lower compression ratio than the original starting ratio, the engine would start reliably and could run continuously at this ratio without the complication of changing compression ratios. The removable auxiliary chamber inserts and changeover valve were replaced with a simple plug. The compression ratio was fixed at 17.5:1. This was done without altering the volume of the combustion chamber, by shimming the cylinder at the base to produce .030" more clearance between the piston crown and head, leaving a little more air in the cylinder space at TDC. Thus, the cylinders, pistons and heads remained interchangeable between the older and newer engines.

While these venerable engines had become unprofitable for Lister to build and market by the '80s, there remains a considerable demand for these durable, simple, economical engines in many of the less-developed nations where they are used widely for jobs such as pumping water to irrigate fields. Several firms in India had begun to produce replacement parts for Lister Diesel engines, and some firms began to assemble entire engines from replacement parts! (Just as has been done in the United States with PC clones and clones of Harley-Davidson motorcycles.) Many of these are faithful replicas of Lister engines, with all parts being interchangeable. Several interesting local innovations have been developed, including models with tapered roller main bearings and pure splash lubrication without an oil pump, bored-out, higher-speed 10/1 and 20/2 variants, "Mini-Listers" with smaller outside dimensions, and "Maxi-Listers" up to a 16/1! There are many sites on the Web for companies offering these engines, and far more for companies cloning the small, high-speed Petter Diesels. While it seems likely that the Environmental Protection Agency will stymie the future importation of these engines into the United States, I expect that they will continue to be built and used in India for a long time to come. Perhaps the Lister CS will be the first engine design to remain in continuous production for 100 years?

My Generator

2007-07-29T09:55:00.000-07:00

My Generator

How can I afford to pay for fuel for the generator you say, well, that is easy, people pay me to burn their fuel. You see, my generator runs on waste motor oil, waste cooking oil, stale diesel and gas, crude oil, transmission fluid, liquor, ladies stinkwater and most any other burnable liquid. Since waste motor oil is so hard to get rid of and the EPA says that burning it as fuel is the most efficient way to dispose of it, I will be allowing people to dump their wast motor oil here for a dollar a gallon. I put up one Internet add and got 150 gallons.

The engine is a copy of the old Lister peanut oil engines that have since ceased to be produced. Many of them have run for twenty years without being shut down. The copies are made in India.

6 HP @650 RPM
700 pounds
Hand crank
Splash lubrication
Cooling is by thermo siphoning water through a 55 gallon drum (no water pump)
Most repairs can be done in the field with the tool kit that comes with the engine.
They stand about 4 feet high

Is it any wonder they run for 20 years without stopping?
Since the 2 200 pound flywheels do not lend to fast acceleration, I will only be running the generator head for the water heater, air conditioner, my heavy power tools and welder. Everything else will be run off of my inverter which converts DC battery power to AC power. The batteries will be charged by an automotive alternator. To make it run more efficiently, I will be using a manual adjustment from a piece of heating element to keep the alternator permanently set to a maximum of 14 14.5 volts.

For noise, I use a 30 gallon drum inside a 55 gallon drum with the extra space inside it filled with dirt. The 55 gallon drum is buried about 2/3 in the ground.

I haven't figured where I am going from there. I may just go up or I might direct it to some bushes nearby. Plants like exhaust gasses. One thing about them is that they have that sound that gets a man's testosterone get rite up and boil.

My Home

2007-07-29T09:54:00.001-07:00

MY home

Well, it has been a little over a year now since I sold my house on the beach in Florida at the height of the land boom and retired. People ask me if I miss Florida, Why would I. What would you miss, 90% humidity, traffic jams, tourist season (summer and winter), hurricanes, droughts and fires, unable to buy property insurance, mosquitoes or crime, take your pick. I didn't loose anything there so there is no reason to go back looking for it.

Since retiring and moving to Texas, I have been working on the acre of land I bought. There is a retired vet living in a trailer up front. We get along fine, neither of us like company. In the back corner I converted a 20 x 8 foot steel shipping container into a house. Total cost, about 5K and It is very energy efficient. A single 5k Btu air conditioner takes care of the entire house.

At the moment I am partially solar powered backed up by the grid. My lights are all florescent and led, my stove is gas. For now shower water and dish water is one temperature, about 95 degrees. The water heater is shut off when I don't use it. In the winter I have a small 1500 watt oil filled heater. That and the AC seldom run. The house is too tight for gas water heater or gas heat, besides, I will soon need the extra amperage for the generator I will soon have installed because the generator must have a 50% load on it for a long life of the diesel engine which will allow me to disconnect from the grid.